I don't know much about this time period so I think someone else should take over from here. --strangerface, 9/20/06
renenet is going to work on this! She believes in using paper notes for some bizarre reason, but we can expect to see her about soon :)
This is all great info!! I'm not sure it belongs on a category page, though. Let me give it some thought...
-whitearrow 09:18, 25 September 2006 (PDT)
Oh, hey, I didn't notice it was a category page. I was just going through HMD and TOJ this weekend and making notes of any time a hard date was mentioned and then trying to weave it in with the historical dates.
Strangerface 09:23, 25 September 2006 (PDT)
I started doing the italic thing when I though the timeline would be mostly historical stuff with some book stuff here and there. But now I'm staring to get a lot more book stuff than historical stuff and the italic is looking funny. I don't know a better way to do it though. I want actual historical stuff to be distinguished from fictional events but I'm not sure how.
Strangerface 09:27, 25 September 2006 (PDT)
I think we should only include historical info that's "true" for book purposes, as it will be on the article pages, and relevant background not contradicted by the books (e.g, Napoleon's birthday). If "real" history contradicts the book, we just ignore it :)
Does that sound workable?
Yes, perfectly. I think NN is trying to work within the parameters given anyway so there sholdn't be too much that's jossed. -- Strangerface 10:53, 30 September 2006 (PDT)
I got the July leaving Loch Laggan date from when Laurence tells Bedford that: “Yes, that is Temeraire. He is not yet eight months old, yet he does have nearly his full growth.” (155, HMD) I'm approximating about seven months from January.
At the very beginning of chapter 11, Laurence gives us the date as "only a day shy of October." And then Jane says it would take two weeks for her to reach Cadiz.
The date of the Battle of Dover is even more approximate. It's from this reference, "Volly brought almost two weeks to the day from his departure" (165).
-- Strangerface 16:07, 29 September 2006 (PDT)
If someone cared to make a schnazzy little symbol to put next to approximate dates, we could include a legend rather than adding a note after each date.
--Железное крыло 15:11, 6 May 2007 (PDT)
The real siege of Danzig was from March to May 1807 (see: http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/eceurope/danzig18071813.html ), but that's not consistent with ch. 17 of BPW, which refers to early winter, the frost, and the French army's inability to make headway on entrenching until March (until Lien arrives). It seems to me like the fictional version is in late 1806-early 1807, perhaps.
I thought it seemed off in my head. The date I put up was from history. I still haven't gotten through making notes of ToJ yet. -- Strangerface 18:04, 10 October 2006 (PDT)
The dates I've put down for the siege are based on the previous date in the timeline for the loss of the Russian army, and on the infomation in the books stating the siege was already underway when Temeraire arrived at Danzig. I'm more than happy for these to be change if anyone has a better idea for the date. It's probably worth trying to tie in Iskierka's DoB to the siege as well. --Andrew 03:27, 16 February 2007 (PST)
Is it worth mentioning any potentially significant changes from the historical timeline? I'm thinking mostly of Nelson's survival of the Battle of Trafalgar. --Andrew 05:57, 10 January 2007 (PST)
- Given the historical approach we're supposed to be taking, I think it'd be best to mention it in a matter of fact way. Zamboni 06:37, 10 January 2007 (PST)
- I agree with Zamboni. :) -whitearrow 10:09, 10 January 2007 (PST)
Here are some points I've noticed from "Empire of Ivory" - page references are to the North American Del Rey mass market paperback edition, 2007.
Arrival in Edinburgh after crossing North Sea: "Their flight was slow and the days were grown short; it lack only a week to Christmas, Laurence realized abruptly." - p. 15 - So December 18 or thereabouts.
Laurence and Berkley discuss less of trip to Africa after Temeraire is found to be immune: "Less than three months to the Cape... to judge by our last voyage..." - p. 121
Laurence meets with Riley to prepare for the Allegiance's voyage to Africa: "She had come into harbor some four weeks earlier, Laurence and Temeraire having reached England, in the end, scarcely any sooner than their ocean passage would have brought them, if they had sailed home with the Allegiance after all." - p. 125 - So the Allegiance has arrived some time but not a great time after December 18, and this meeting is taking place some time but not a great time after mid-January.
The Allegiance arrives in Africa: "...the Allegiance had made good time, still every day of the two months and more had eaten steadily away at [the dragons'] strength." - p. 162 - Confirms that the voyage took more than two and less than three months.
Flight to Mosi-oa-tunya: "Chenery had set down ten days, for the flight which had carried them prisoner to the falls; Laurence had made it twelve, Catherine eleven... it had not been less than nine-days' flying." - p. 351 - So 18-24 days just getting to and from the falls, plus the time of captivity, plus events preceding the capture - Lily's formation has to have been in Capetown at least six weeks if not more.
Return voyage to Britain: "Drawing near Benguela, they passed a pair of tattered ships on the fifteenth of June..." - p. 316.
Arrival at Benguela relative to departure from Capetown: "'It cannot have been the same band who came on us in Capetown,' Riley said, when he had done. 'It cannot; could dragons have flown here, so quickly?' 'Fourteen hundred miles, in less than a week's time?...'" - p. 317. This conversation takes place on or after June 15, therefore the departure from Capetown was after June 8. Therefore, the Allegiance should reach Britain some time between mid-August and mid-September. Also, the Allegiance can't have arrived in Capetown any later than mid-April, if not earlier, in order to allow for at least six weeks there. This in turn suggests that she left Britain some time between mid-January and mid-February.
State of Catherine's pregnancy after reaching Britain: "Jane shook her head disapprovingly. 'At seven months I was as well as ever I have been in my life.'" - p. 332 - Is Jane implying that Catherine is already seven months' gone? If so, this suggests that conception occurred some time between mid-January and mid-February. This fits in with the above and also knowing that the Allegiance left Britain some time after mid-January - we know now that she has to have left before mid-February.
Laurence and Temeraire return to Britain from France: "He was very certain they would execute him by Michaelmas." - p. 399 - Michaelmas = September 29. Therefore, the Allegiance has to have reached Britain in time for Jane et al. to go before the Admiralty, find out about their plans re: the plague, for Laurence and Temeraire to steal the cure, for Laurence to be interrogated for a week and then to meet with De Guignes and Napoleon. This all argues for an arrival date in Britain of somewhat closer to mid-August than mid-September.
Okay, now here's some stuff from Victory of Eagles. Page references are to the North American Del Rey hardcover edition pub. 2008.
Tharkay and Gherni retrieve Laurence from prison in Dover: "The sky had the peculiar late-autumn crispness..." - p. 45.
Timing since Laurence and Temeraire took the cure to France: "Laurence had slept his last night beneath the sheltering wing nearly three months ago, in the northern mountains, treason already committed and a few hours snatched before they made the fatal flight across the Channel." - p. 55 - Sounds as if this is happening in early December, which technically at least is still "late autumn", at least in southern England. (As I write this, it is December 9, 2008, and snowing here in New Brunswick, Canada. Late autumn, bah humbug.)
Laurence and Temeraire meet Maximus and Berkley in camp after Temeraire has spoken w/ the generals but before the battle the next day - Maximus mentions that "Catherine has had the egg." Berkley adds that the child weighed ten pounds at birth - "Nearly killed her." When Laurence asks if mother and child are both well now, Berkley replies, "She can write and say so, which means she is only half-dead, I expect." - pp. 136-137. So we know that it's unlikely that the child was premature, and it also sounds as if the birth was relatively recent.
Laurence meets Catherine at Loch Laggan, where Talleyrand and Murat have been in conference with the British: "She had still the little thickness at the middle she had gained in her pregnancy, but her arms were thin of muscle and strength; she ought to have been resting." - p. 239 - Again, sounds like a relatively recent birth.
Period of guerrilla warfare under Laurence's command - "They had been raiding then nearly two months, when Arkady arrived the first week of March in a great flurry of noise, carrying Tharkay and with three of his ferals for escort..." - p. 281. So the raiding has been taking place pretty much in January and February. Therefore Laurence met first Berkley and then Catherine before that - possibly late December?
So we have: - Catherine is seven months pregnant when Allegiance reaches Britain in mid-August/mid-September. - But Laurence expects to be hanged by Michaelmas, so really the Allegiance can not have reached Britain much past the end of August/beginning of September. - This would put the birth of the child at the end of October/beginning of November. - This does not agree too badly with Catherine still showing the effects of a difficult pregnancy and birth in late December but being able (more or less) to resume active duty. 21st century western medical practices recommend that the final post-partum check-up be done six weeks after the birth. - So conception occurred end of January/beginning of February. - The Allegiance sailed for Africa before conception occurred, but not before mid-January. - Temeraire was exposed to the plague and found to be immune before the Allegiance sailed.
In view of this, I'm going to make the following changes to the timeline:
December 28, 1806 -> December 18, 1806 for arrival of Temeraire & Co. in Scotland.
March -> January for infection of Sauvignon and Temeraire.
May -> Late January/early February for departure of Lily's formation for Africa.
June -> Allegiance arrives Capetown mid-April. Discovery of fungus. Capture of Laurence, Harcourt, Chenery, etc. by Kefentse in early May.
July -> Early June for expulsion of European slave traders from Africa, coinciding with captives' escape. Allegiance sails for Britain, arrives late August.
February -> End of October/beginning of November for birth of child. The February date was based on the May date for departure of Lily's formation for Africa, but I think this has been discredited. So by the time the Allegiance sails for Australia, say in April 1808, the child is about five months' old. If Riley brings him on board, he would still require a wet nurse, but it would be somewhat more manageable than bringing a two-month-old on board.
Rose 10:01, 9 December 2008 (PST)
Excellent effort with the dates. Andrew 07:31, 10 December 2008 (PST)