Editing Talk:Celestial

Concerning tenses - I just read the conventions page, and intend to follow the 'historical' style, using past tense, but in cases like this, it doesn't really make any sense to talk about Celestials as though they were all dead. Correct?

----[[User:Железное крыло|Железное крыло]] 15:40, 6 May 2007 (PDT)

Well... the conceit was that we're talking about a bygone era, so past tense would be appropriate, but it isn't critical here.

-[[User:Whitearrow|whitearrow]] 14:40, 9 May 2007 (PDT)

== stolen artwork? ==

i was just wondering why a few of the images for the breeds, including the celestial image (while none of them bear much aof a striking resemblance to the in-book descriptions, apart from basic color similarities) are marked at the bottom as being copyrighted to Xu?

the celestial image is taken from [http://commerce.idmi.net/ecommerce/catalog_detail.asp?CID=153&CI=1490&PI=15911 here]and is an image done by ruth thompson. othe rbreed images copyrighted to the name Xu come from various sources, including calendars and book covers. it would seem to me that if this person is claiming these as their own works, they should be penalized, and at the very least the copyright should be removed from the byline under the images, unless they can provide some proof that they have permission to submit these images under their own name...


'''All images were taken from http://www.dracos.org/newdragons/index.htm and they have no copyright on that website nor does it state a copyright to the pictures.''' [[User:Xu Long Nu|Xu Xie]]

just because the pictures came from a source website and do not have copyrights on them, does not give you the go ahead to copyrigth them under your own name. unless they were works created -by you- or the rights to the images sold to you, or you have obtained the express permission of the original artists to post those images under your own name, then you cannot copyright them, or have a copyright to your name in a byline. it's still theft.

== Translation ==

I've updated the translation as the Chinese uses the rather sensible general -> specific naming convention. [[User:Andrew|Andrew]] 02:56, 30 June 2008 (PDT)

== In line for the throne ==

A while back, I posted this on the [[Temeraire]] page;

                      Unnamed Imperial---M---Unnamed Imperial
                                  |
                                  |
     Unnamed Imperial---M---[[Lung Tien Xian]]
                        |    (Grandfather) 
       +----------------+-------------------------+-----------------------------+----------------+ 
       |                                          |                             |                |
 [[Lung Tien Chu]]---M---Unnamed Imperial   [[Lung Tien Qian]]---M---[[Lung Qin Gao]]  *[[Lung Tien Ming]]  *[[Lung Tien Zhi]]
                 |                                       |
                 |                            +----------+----------+
           [[Lung Tien Lien]]                     |                     |
                                        [[Lung Tien Chuan]]       [[Lung Tien Xiang]] 
                                                               (Temeraire)
*=Presumed Relation

We know so little about Lung Tien Ming and Lung Tien Zhi that I had to guess their relation. For all we know, one could be the parent of the other. 

The matter of succession (or how it is decided which Celestial becomes consort to the emperor) is where things get confusing. It is said that Yongxing gave up his right to become Emperor when he became Lien's companion. However, Lien's father Chu is the current consort, which suggests that he wasn't paired to the Jaiqing Emperor at this point. 
However, if Celestial succession is anything like the human succession (the emperor chooses, instead of age), then it could be that the eldest children get the first choice, and then the emperor picks one of them (the dragon's gender doesn't seem to affect candidacy for the throne, as Liu Bao only says that Lien's skin is what barred the throne to Yongxing). 
This theory falls apart because it suggests that that Dragon's offspring should be the next in line for the throne, and yet Chuan, Chu's nephew, is the heir apparent.

Possibly, to prevent a Celestial dying without leaving an heir, the eldest Celestial offspring of the eldest relation will be groomed as a successor. Picture the current situation. Chu is paired with the Emperor. His child, Lien, cannot take the throne. Qian doesn't seem to qualify, so it could be that female celestials can't take the throne. Ming and Zhi aren't considered, which must mean that they are younger than Qian or have no children, and already paired with brothers of the Jiaqing Emperor. Hence, when Chuan and Temeraire were born, Chuan was set up as heir apparent, as he could quickly become companion to Prince Mianning, the heir to the throne.

I don't know. Two final notes, 1. Qian's remark that they are all cousins at most could suggest that they all share only one parent. 2. Is it actually said anywhere that Lung Tien Xian/Grandfather was sired by two Imperials? I've seen the information on the wiki, so I used it here, but then it occured to me that that would mean that the royal line of Celestials has gone extinct in the past. Of course, this could be a nod to the changing dynasties, and Grandfather would be old enough to have been born to the earliest emperor, except that complicates things because which Celestials were companion to the older emperors? Although, if one considers that there were four Qing emperors preceding the Qianlong emperor, it could be that each member of Temeraire's family, bar him and Lien have been companions to the emperors. So, let me guess...

It could have been like this:

Dorgon - (A previous Celestial? Or possibly none at all)
Shunzhi Emperor - Lung Tien Xian (the eldest, although there may have been more before him)
Kangxi Emperor - Qian? (She is said to be fairly old)
Yongzheng Emperor - Ming? 
Qianlong Emperor - Zhi?
Jiaqing Emperor - Lung Tien Chu (Current ruler)
Daoguang Emperor - Lung Tien Chuan (Heir apparent)

The only thing that seems strange is that Ming and Zhi don't appear to have had offspring, which is odd, considering their age. If Zhi was the offspring of Ming, or vice versa, that could explain it. Alternatively, one of the elder consorts could have died, but given the lack of fighting, unless some disease existed, death seems unlikely. 

Boy, have I rambled on. And certainly, this family tree will need reworking. Thoughts on this? Is there any way we could email Naomi Novik (or post on the official page or her Facebook page) and see if she has made a proper family tree?

:Yes, it's said in "Throne of Jade" that Grandfather was born of two Imperials. "Evidently from time to time a pair of Imperials will give birth to a Celestial," Laurence said [....] "That is how the oldest fellow there now was born; and he is sire to the lot of them, going back four or five generations." 

But Grandfather is old enough now that it's possible there was ANOTHER line of Celestials alive when he was hatched. (Certainly, the first Celestial who appears in Sir Edward Howe's book, was not from the same line.) Breeding Celestials seems uncommonly hard, not just because they can't breed with one another but because of Temeraire's difficulties getting an egg on any of the dragons at the breeding grounds in "Victory of Eagles." 

I don't think the succession to the throne follows the Celestial's birth order that neatly. It seems to me, that the Emperor will give a Celestial to one of his offspring as a sign of favor, or to symbolize that he is next in line for the throne. It probably depends which eggs are hatching around that time. All Celestials are "from Heaven" so it doesn't really make a difference which is male or female or which was born first. I think the situation with Chuan and Temeraire was a special once, because they were twins. If Temeraire's egg had been given to another member of the Emperor's family, then it would've caused confusion as to which son of the Emperor had the his favor. -- [[User:Strangerface|Strangerface]] 11:01, 15 August 2010 (PDT)
@@ Line 67: / Line 67: @@
 :Yes, it's said in "Throne of Jade" that Grandfather was born of two Imperials. "Evidently from time to time a pair of Imperials will give birth to a Celestial," Laurence said [....] "That is how the oldest fellow there now was born; and he is sire to the lot of them, going back four or five generations."
-:But Grandfather is old enough now that it's possible there was ANOTHER line of Celestials alive when he was hatched. (Certainly, the first Celestial who appears in Sir Edward Howe's book, was not from the same line.) Breeding Celestials seems uncommonly hard, not just because they can't breed with one another but because of Temeraire's difficulties getting an egg on any of the dragons at the breeding grounds in "Victory of Eagles."
+But Grandfather is old enough now that it's possible there was ANOTHER line of Celestials alive when he was hatched. (Certainly, the first Celestial who appears in Sir Edward Howe's book, was not from the same line.) Breeding Celestials seems uncommonly hard, not just because they can't breed with one another but because of Temeraire's difficulties getting an egg on any of the dragons at the breeding grounds in "Victory of Eagles."
-:I don't think the succession to the throne follows the Celestial's birth order that neatly. It seems to me, that the Emperor will give a Celestial to one of his offspring as a sign of favor, or to symbolize that he is next in line for the throne. It probably depends which eggs are hatching around that time. All Celestials are "from Heaven" so it doesn't really make a difference which is male or female or which was born first. I think the situation with Chuan and Temeraire was a special once, because they were twins. If Temeraire's egg had been given to another member of the Emperor's family, then it would've caused confusion as to which son of the Emperor had the his favor. -- [[User:Strangerface|Strangerface]] 11:01, 15 August 2010 (PDT)
+I don't think the succession to the throne follows the Celestial's birth order that neatly. It seems to me, that the Emperor will give a Celestial to one of his offspring as a sign of favor, or to symbolize that he is next in line for the throne. It probably depends which eggs are hatching around that time. All Celestials are "from Heaven" so it doesn't really make a difference which is male or female or which was born first. I think the situation with Chuan and Temeraire was a special once, because they were twins. If Temeraire's egg had been given to another member of the Emperor's family, then it would've caused confusion as to which son of the Emperor had the his favor. -- [[User:Strangerface|Strangerface]] 11:01, 15 August 2010 (PDT)
-What is certain is that we know next to nothing :) Nice effort with the chart, though. I tried to do the same once, and got a huge headache. Anyway...
-That Grandfather served with Shunzi Emperor is a reasonable calculation, considering that the Celestials probably bound with only one person right after hatching, and when they are 'widowed' they cannot take another companion. Which means they have the power to designate 'The Emperor' only once in their life. I base this on the panic which was caused by the presence of two eligible dragons at once.
-But here's the catch. It was said that the larger breeds can live up to 200 years (correct me if I'm wrong). And Shunzi Emperor takes us back some 150 years. Was it enough to make a Celestial age as much as Grandfather did? I doubt that. But if, as Strangerface says, there was another line present, it explains it nicely.
-We also don't know which was first - the egg or the Emperor :) Personally, I think the Emperor. I guess when the next heir is chosen the Celestials are asked to produce one egg. The British certainly thought that the number of Celestials is kept low intentionally, which would not be possible if they bred when they pleased.
-Also, there is a nice dilemma here :) The Chinese loudly argued for the freedom of dragons to choose a companion. I wonder what sort of freedom the Celestials have, presented with the chosen  heir. Something tells me that even suggesting that a Son of Heaven might be an unworthy companion is blasphemy, so they might be 'convinced' in their shell what their fate is :) [[User:Natli|Natli]] 14:06, 15 August 2010 (PDT)
-:: (Ah, so that's how you indent!) That quote regarding Grandfather mentions that he goes back at least "Four generations" (Xian and Grandfather may not be the same dragon here; Qian's line "hatched of Xian" implies to me that Xian is female (and deceased). If Grandfather is Xian, this would make the family only have three generations, which suggests to me that he is a different character than Xian (unless Qian was speaking poetically when referring to him, in that as "Grandfather", he wasn't her father, but the father of their line).
-::If we assume that Xian was a Celestial that has since perished, their family tree would look something like this;
- Two Imperials
- |
- Grandfather (M) - Paired with Dorgon or one of the earlier Emperors
- |
- +------------------------------------------------------+
- Xian (F, Deceased) - Shunzi Emp (1638(50)-1661)       Ming (M) - Kangxi Emp (1654(61)-1722)
- |                                                      +
- +--------------------------------------------+        Zhi (M) - Qianlong Emp (1711(35)-17(96)99
- Qian (F) - Yongzheng Emp (1678(1722)-1735)  Chu (M) - Jiaqing Emp (1760(96)-1820)
- |                                                +
- +--------------------------------------------+  Lien (F) - Prince Yongxing
- Chuan (M) - Daoguang Emp (1782(1820)-1850)  Xiang (M) - William Laurence
-::Reasoning for this;
-::*Because in this reasoning, Grandfather was the first Celestial of the Qing Dynasty, I have assumed that all the Celestials have been Imperial Consorts. Hence, Qian must be the elder of Chu.
-::*This rendition suits Qian's words more, in that they are all cousins at most. In the previous chart, Only Lien, Chu & Temeraire were cousins, the rest were siblings.
-::*The placement of the Emperors is conjectural, and based on guessing who would be the elder sibling. The brackets around numbers indicate the start of their reign.
-::*Ming and Zhi's placement is conjectural, they could be siblings, or one could be the father of the other, which I think is more likely.
-::I actually prefer this version of the family tree to my old one. But, because it's conjectural, maybe we shouldn't add it, or at least say as much in the comments. Perhaps we should send Naomi Novik a message on Facebook or Livejournal, and see if this is accurate. Thoughts?
-:Quick response to the note about the Celestial's freedom in choosing a companion, perhaps that is how the next Emperor is chosen; the dragon is introduced to all the potential heirs, and the one they pick as their companion becomes Emperor.
-Another note; In case I am wrong, and Grandfather and Xian are the same, then Qian and Chu must be the children of either Ming or Zhi, and Xian their actual Grandfather. Of course, if Qian was indeed being poetic when saying Chu was also "hatched of Xian", does that mean Chu is her brother or her cousin? Probably her brother, because Lien is Temeraire's "elder cousin". So, possibly this or the next one;
- Two Imperials
- |
- Grandfather (Xian) (M)
- |
- +-----------------+
- Ming? (M)        Zhi? (M)
- |
- +------------------------+
- Qian (F)                Chu (M)
- |                        |
- +-------------+          |
- Chuan (M)   Xiang (M)   Lien (F)
-Con: Not as many cousins as Qian mentions.
- Two Imperials
- |
- Grandfather (Xian) (M)
- |
- +------------------------+
- Ming? (M)               Zhi? (M)
- |                        |
- |                        |
- Qian (F)                Chu (M)
- |                        |
- +-------------+          |
- Chuan (M)   Xiang (M)   Lien (F)
-Pro: Better suits Qian's statement that "they are all cousins", and also shows each "adult" Celestial has had at least one child, as would be assumed for a family this old.
-Cons: In this, Lien is not an "elder cousin" to Temeraire.
-Thoughts?
-==Grandfather's age==
-Unless Celestials age significantly differently than other dragons, I would say "Grandfather" is older than 200 years. We estimate that [[Gentius]] is about 225 years of age (or more) yet he can still talk, spray and fly (albiet for a little bit). Grandfather is described as "ancient" and "His enormous ruff was leached of color, and his hide gone so translucent the black was now redly tinted with the color of the flesh and blood beneath. Another of the yellow-striped dragons paced him carefully, nudging him occasionally with his nose towards the sun-drenched courtyard; the Celestial’s eyes were a milky blue, the pupils barely visible beneath the cataracts." They also have other dragons nudge him along, so it doesn't seem like he can fly even if he weren't blind. It gives me the impression that he has lasted so long only because so many dragons are caring for him diligently.
-I never got the impression that Grandfather and Xian were the same dragon. I was surprised to see it noted as such on this wiki. I assumed it was because someone had more information (from NN or chats or something). In the books, Qian refers to him as "Grandfather" and then when she says (of Lien), "She was sired by Chu, who was hatched of Xian, as was I." It seems that if Xian were Grandfather she would've said so. I don't know why she should've used two names for the same dragon. I thought that Xian was dead, actually.
-She says, later, "There are only myself and Lien now, who are female, and besides Grandfather and Chu, there are only Chuan and Ming and Zhi, and we are all cousins at most." -- [[User:Strangerface|Strangerface]] 17:29, 15 August 2010 (PDT)
-::I agree. I was certain that Xian is the Grandfather (don't know why) but I've re-read ToJ and Laurence says the 'oldest fellow' (meaning Grandfather) goes back 4-5 generations. So it cannot be Xian who would be the 3rd generation, counting from Temeraire and Chuan. [[User:Natli|Natli]] 08:50, 16 August 2010 (PDT)
-== Ask Naomi - Should We Ask About The Family Tree? ==
-Well, that new website function seems to be for odd little questions. Should one of us use the Ask Naomi feature to see if she has a family tree for the Celestials mapped out? It'd finally tell us exactly which dragons make up the four generations, and whether [[Xian]] is [[Grandfather]] or a deceased female. She might even have a list of which Dragons were paired with which Emperors, and whether we are right in assuming the previous Celestial Family fled with the Ming Dynasty. I'd ask her myself, but I've already sent two questions out this month, so someone else will need to do it.
-If nobody does, I'll send two questions next month asking about this, and to see whether succession to the Imperial Throne is a result of the youngest Celestial choosing one of the Emperor's children, as we've speculated on other pages.
-[[User:Almaron|Almaron]] 02:43, 21 August 2011 (MDT)
-:I sent her a question about Xian a week or two ago, shortly before that section updated. I don't know whether they save older questions to go back into the selection pool, or whether I should resubmit. --[[User:Wombat1138|Wombat1138]] 12:48, 21 August 2011 (MDT)
-== Family tree ==
-Just had a look at the latest incarnation of the family tree, and I note it's got Lung Tien Xian listed as being the son of an Imperial and a Celestial? This contradicts Throne of Jade, which says he was born of two Imperials. Course, we don't know if that's true or not, now that we have this new information about Kublai Khan stealing Celestials from Japan...how should we write this up?
-And for that matter, where does that leave the Yellow Emperor? Was he a Celestial after all? Or did the breed move from China to Japan and then back? [[User:Almaron|Almaron]] 19:34, 3 September 2013 (CDT)
-== Wings ==
-Temeraire said about hovering that it was simply beating his wings the other way. This picture could explain that, look at the hummingbird in the lower right corner: http://9gag.com/gag/aBQ0RqO Pretty interesting! --[[User:Harmenator|Harmenator]] 10:10, 5 October 2014 (UTC)