Editing Talk:Dragon Breeds

Amazing image. This is without doubt one of the best pages on the wiki. I can't believe I've only just discovered it. --[[User:Andrew|Andrew]] 04:28, 6 November 2007 (PST)

== Dragon Names ==

I wonder if we should attempt to make names for the other Chinese dragons. For instance, we know that Celestial Dragons are Lung Tien "Name" (Dragon Celestial "Name"), and Imperials are Qin. Though not explicitly stated, the Shen-Lung dragons are almost certainly Lung Shen, and their page should possibly be titled Spiritual Dragon. Yu can translate as Jade, so that covers Jade Dragons. The only two Chinese dragons we don't have names for are the "Emerald Glass" and the "Scarlet Flower". Is anyone on this wiki familiar enough with the Chinese language to translate the names and create a conjectural name?

== Breeds by country ==

Should we sort the dragon breeds by their country of origin on this page, or should we create another page for them. I just realised that there is at least one type of dragon (a small purple breed from China) that we have no other information about, and as such we won't be able to create a page for it. But, if this page was sorted by country, then we could add a note in the Chinese Breeds section about it. Thoughts on this?

Perhaps start a new page called something like "List of dragon breeds by country of origin" that can be put at the top of this Dragon Breeds category index? Maybe then we could move the [[Dragons in America]] and [[Dragons in Canada]] page there, since they are sort of miscategorized in the "Dragons" secetion, which is pimarily individual dragons? -- strangerface

:I'd suggest adding countries of origin as indexed subcategories, in the same way that the "Category:People" page is already set up. --[[User:Wombat1138|Wombat1138]] 19:51, 12 August 2010 (PDT)

Agreed. How about listing them in order of size in these categories, if such information is known?

An update; I've just sorted all of the breeds into groups of native country and size. Some of these I had to guess at, si I marked these with asterisks and said as much at the top of the section. The question I have is should the sizes as given in the fan-image of all the dragon breeds be accepted as canon, or should we use that as a guide?

:Do we know whether the fan artist had any extra information from NN about relative sizes? Technically, it would be useful to have every official citation of dragon size from the series-- but it would be just as tedious to compile all of those cites as it would be to read them. WRT the national origin sections, my first impulse was to try correlating the numbers within each subsection to the main art index numbers at the start of the article... I wonder if it would be worthwhile to change the art index into a dynamic table that included (and could be sorted by) national origin, though I'm not sure how the sizes could be factored into that. (An easier way might be to simply color-code individual breed names in the existing art index.)--[[User:Wombat1138|Wombat1138]] 15:02, 14 August 2010 (PDT)

:: (Just gonna stick this here) No the artist did not have extra information about the dragons.  I used what was in the books and pretty much invented the rest.  The dragons that are well described in the books should be pretty accurate but those that are just mentioned in passing are total guesses (though sometimes I used the pattern of the butterfly the dragon was named after).  The only cannon dragon I got wrong and haven't fixed yet is my Longwing.  I forgot the orange wing edges on that one.  --[[User:Mooir|Mooir]] 20:00, 11 September 2010 (PDT)

:::I think you also added a note about reversing the color scheme for the Malachite Reapers? In any case, the butterfly-based patterning is a nice detail, and the entire layout is beautiful-- thank you for uploading it :) --[[User:Wombat1138|Wombat1138]] 21:47, 11 September 2010 (PDT)

:: Another thought on visually coding the breed names-- how about marking different national origins <font color="green">by color</font>, and marking weights by putting <font color="green">'''heavyweights'''</font> in bold, <font color="green">middleweights</font> in normal font, and <font color="green">''lightweights''</font> in italics? --[[User:Wombat1138|Wombat1138]] 21:36, 29 August 2010 (PDT)

:::With regards to the Table idea; sounds good. I've thought for a while now that the large picture should be edited to better group the dragons, as at the moment it's just all over the place. So, how about a table that has the name in the first box, country of origin in the next, weight in the third, and finally the picture in the fourth? We could even add an extra box listing names, but that could make it a bit lengthy. On the other hand, it might make sense to sort them in the way they are at the bottom of the page currently, if we can come up with an accurate list of weights.

:::As for the cites, they shouldn't take too long; it's just a matter of finding the odd descriptive quote, adding them with Sir Edward Howe's notes and adding the odd bit of speculation. For instance, it's safe to say that the Winchester breed is the smallest English breed. We know that the Grey Widowmaker is a small breed that was bred with Winchesters to create the Greyling, so presumably the Greyling is smaller than the Widowmaker. We also know that the Grey Coppers are smaller dragons, so it could be that they were a cross between Bright Coppers and Grey Widowmakers. That's nearly the entire Lightweight section sorted out. From memory, Anglewings are slightly larger than Yellow Reapers (and I would assume, based on the descriptions, that Malachite Reapers are of a similar size to Yellow Reapers). I'll come back to this later when I've had a chance to consult my notes. BTW, what do you think about the link below to Wikipedia? Has any of that information regarding weights turned up in the books before?[[User:Almaron|Almaron]] 02:11, 30 August 2010 (PDT)

These notes on Wikipedia may have merit; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temeraire_(series)#Dragon_classification_by_size

== Weight classification ==

Can anyone confirm if the information on this Wikipedia page is accurate? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temeraire_(series)#Dragon_classification_by_size

If it is, then we can update the list to show that the Grey Widowmaker breed is Lightweight (8 tons, courtesy of Sir Edward Howe's notes) and larger than the Greyling (which would make sense if they'd crossbred with a Winchester), and that the Cauchador Real is a Heavyweight. [[User:Almaron|Almaron]] 14:39, 22 August 2010 (PDT)

:On second thought, I've also had a look at this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dragon_breeds_(Temeraire)) and I think that someone's made the whole thing up. Countless weights are listed without any source, various errors exist and one breed (Horntail) is from a completely different book series! [[User:Almaron|Almaron]] 16:34, 30 August 2010 (PDT)

== Weight order notes ==

Okay, I had a quick look (hah!) through the Temeraire books, and here's what I found about the British Breeds.

Here are the known British breeds; Winchester, Greyling, Grey Widowmaker, Sharpspitter, Xenica, Grey Copper, Bright Copper, Regal Copper, Yellow Reaper, Malachite Reaper, Anglewing, Longwing, Parnassian, Chequered Nettle. Of these, the Sharpspitter, the Grey Widowmaker, the Yellow Reaper and (presumably) the Winchester predate any breeding programmes. Any Heavyweight breed is the result of cross-breeding, as larger dragons prefer warmer climates, meaning smaller dragons were more likely to migrate to the British Isles.

*Winchesters weigh around 2 tonnes
*Greyling breed result of Winchester and Grey Widowmaker breeding.
*Grey Widowmakers rarely exceed 8 tonnes
*Yellow Reapers 10-17 tonnes, though usually 12-15 tonnes
*Anglewings slightly larger than Yellow Reapers
*Regal Copper largest British breed (30-50 tonnes)

Four sizes exist-Heavyweight, Middleweight, Light Combat & Courier, the last two of which are grouped together as Lightweight. In His Majesty's Dragon, Victoriatus, a Parnassian, is listed as a large Middleweight. However, in Victory Of Eagles, all the appearing Parnassians are listed as Heavyweights. Since breeds vary in size, this could mean that the Parnassian breed straddles the border between Middleweight and Heavyweight, and that Victoriatus was small for his breed.

Malachite Reapers are most likely of a similar size to Yellow Reapers, being fairly closely related (the result of undocumented breeding between Yellow Reapers and Lindorms). Anglewings are slightly larger than Yellow Reapers. Greylings, judging by the name and parentage, are smaller than the Grey Widowmaker, which appears to be a completely feral breed that either lives in isolated areas or in breeding grounds.

A size for Bright Coppers is not given, but the popular consensus is that they are Middleweights, due to the fact that they were smaller than the presumably Heavyweight Cauchador Real, with which they mated to eventually produce the Regal Copper, after some ten generations of close breeding. Judging by the name, the Lightweight Grey Copper breed could have been a mix 
of Bright Copper and Grey Widowmaker, a breed better suited for Lightweight offspring.

With this known, it can be assumed that the Chequered Nettle, the only other Heavyweight breed known, exceeds the weight of the Parnassian, but not the Regal Copper.

Because Yellow Reapers can be as light as 10 tonnes, but still be classified as Middleweight, this must make the Lightweight/Heavyweight border somewhere around here. The Grey Copper and Sharpspitter breeds are both Lightweight, so they must weigh 10 tonnes or less. However, the Sharpspitter is mentioned as being too small and low-flying to be a useful combat dragon, so it must be smaller than the Grey Copper, and possibly even the Grey Widowmaker also.

Longwings are Middleweight dragons, but it isn't explicitly clear how large they are. Presumably, they are larger than Yellow Reapers.

With this info, we can create the following chart:

Winchester
*Greyling
*Sharpspitter
------------Courier/Lightweight Divide
Grey Widowmaker 
Grey Copper
------------Lightweight/Middleweight Divide
Yellow Reaper
*Malachite Reaper
Anglewing
*Longwing
*Bright Copper
Parnassian--Middleweight/Heavyweight Divide
Chequered Nettle
Regal Copper

The only breed not listed is the Xenica, which we have no information about other than it only takes female dragons. This could mean it is related to the Longwing breed, and could have been one of the results of the various combinations of breeds that ultimately produced the Longwing. Presumably it is a Middleweight or smaller, as none have been seen so far, and a larger breed would be of enough importance to have been seen at at least one battle.

One could also speculate as to which combinations of breeds, both British and foreign, produced the other breeds. The Anglewing's name, similar to the Longwing's, could suggest a common ancestor, but the golden colouring could be a mixture of Bright Copper and Yellow Reaper, the latter of which is linked to nearly every British Breed. The Chequered Nettle is almost certainly related to the Defendeur-Brave, another breed with a spiked tail.

Right! That's British Breeds nearly sorted, now to look for the French and Chinese Breeds! By the way, I wonder if we can guess the average size for each dragon, based on this and a bit of maths. For instance, Yellow Reapers are described as being well-proportionate to their size, and the pictures of the dragons at the back of His Majesty's Dragon depict them all on a similar scale. If we draw a graph listing the sizes listed by Sir Edward Howe of the Longwing, the Yellow Reaper and the Regal Copper, we can draw imaginary lines between the dragons to guess what a smaller dragon's weight or length would be. I can't upload the simple graph I've drawn, so I'll have to describe it and hope someone can duplicate it.

Yellow Reaper - 10-17 tonnes, mostly 12-15 tonnes. 50 feet long.
Regal Copper - 30-50 tonnes. 120 feet long.

This gave me the following lines (measurements approximate). 
1-Lightest Weight - From 0 tonnes/16 feet to 30 tonnes/120 feet.
2-Average Weight - From 0 tonnes/12 feet to 40 tonnes/120 feet.
3-Heaviest Weight - From 0 tonnes/8 feet to 50 tonnes/120 feet

[[User:Almaron|Almaron]] 19:02, 30 August 2010 (PDT)

:According to Sir Edward's notes at the end of book 1, Longwings "rarely exceed 60 feet in length [but] wingspans of 120 feet are not uncommon among them"-- or were you looking for actual weight citations? Also, Temeraire was already larger than Volly when they first met, despite being only "three weeks and five days old"; there may be enough offhand size references to Temereraire around that time to place an upper estimate on Greyling sizes. --[[User:Wombat1138|Wombat1138]] 20:01, 30 August 2010 (PDT)

::Volatilus is smaller than Temeraire when they first meet, and a few days later, Temeraire meets Laetificat, and is said to be less than a fifth of her size. So Greylings could be anything under 10 tonnes. [[User:Almaron|Almaron]] 20:09, 30 August 2010 (PDT)

::Also, if my chart is right, the weight of a Longwing should be somewhere between 13 and 24 tonnes, with the average weight being about 17 tonnes. I need to redo this, and come up with a more precise measurement, and a formula for quick calculation. [[User:Almaron|Almaron]] 20:16, 30 August 2010 (PDT)

:::The length/weight ratio probably isn't linear :| In the simplest case, if we ignore the weight of wings as relatively incidental and assume a relatively constant proportion of tail to body and shoulder height/breadth to length, then that approximates scaling up a cylindrical body with elongated conical tail-- not just a linear factor of length, but length x (pi)r<sup>2</sup> (with whatever fractional component gets thrown in by the tail) argh. --[[User:Wombat1138|Wombat1138]] 20:41, 30 August 2010 (PDT)

. There's also the problem of Regal Coppers (and Kulingile) have disproportionately large airsacs

:Here's a more updated version of my speculative graph. First of all, I got the weight range of Regal Coppers and Yellow Reapers, then I drew lines across a grid that intersected at the maximum, minimum, and the middle possible weight. The height ratio will not be accurate, but I think it provides a good estimate for dragon size.

          Min    Med    Max
  10 ft = N/A  = N/A  = N/A  =
  20 ft = 1.3  = 2    = 3    =
  30 ft = 4.3  = 6    = 7.6  =
  40 ft = 7    = 9.6  = 12.3 =
  50 ft = 10   = 13.3 = 17   =
  60 ft = 13   = 17.3 = 21.6 =
  70 ft = 15.6 = 21   = 26.3 =
  80 ft = 18.6 = 25   = 31   =
  90 ft = 21.3 = 28.6 = 36   =
 100 ft = 24.3 = 32.3 = 40.6 =
 110 ft = 27   = 36.3 = 45.3 =
 120 ft = 30   = 40   = 50   =

So, with a Longwing being some 60ft long, we could assume that their weight range falls somewhere between 13 and 21.6 Tonnes. Again, it's only an estimate, the height-to-weight ratio will not be entirely accurate, as the chart was also calculated using the average length of Yellow Reapers and Regal Coppers, but it's still pretty close. [[User:Almaron|Almaron]] 23:04, 30 August 2010 (PDT)

Here's the graph: [[Image:Graph2.jpg]]

== Japanese Dragons - Speculative Info! ==

I was typing the names of several dragon breeds into Google, in case they were based off mythological dragons, and I think I may have found something here. These two websites ; [http://www.dragonsinn.net/eastjap-2.htm] [http://www.blackdrago.com/easterndragons.htm] both mention the Sui Riu and Ka Riu as being mythological dragons. The Sui Riu was the master of rain (which fits with a dragon who "causes storms". It may be red, as it was said to turn the rain red when it was in pain) and the Ka Riu was red, and (sometimes) made of fire (we know it has a vitriolic attack, perhaps it is vaguely firey?).

It also lists several chinese dragons, several we already have noted (Li-Lung was a new one, so I guess that adds to the theory). So, should we do anything with this info? I certainly don't think that we should paste it as fact on the breed pages, but perhaps it's worth making a new heading for this sort of information, like "Inspiration" or "Mythological Counterpart". I doubt that we will ever get to see a Sui Riu or a Ka Riu in the series, and what we have so far might be all we'll ever know. [[User:Almaron|Almaron]] 19:48, 8 September 2010 (PDT)

== Dragons and Butterflies ==

I've been looking up the names of the Dragon Breeds to see if they have any counterparts in mythology, so we can picture what they should look like, and several breeds have names belonging to Butterflies (Xenica, Bright Copper, Anglewing, Longwing and Mauerfuchs, as well as "Chequered" being a name for two breeds of butterfly. Plus, the french word Papillon even means Butterfly!). Because of the issues we had with some of these names (Xenica for one having no real meaning), perhaps some of the people who classified butterflies in our world classified dragons in the Temeraire world. [[User:Almaron|Almaron]] 00:37, 9 September 2010 (PDT)

:If nothing else, we can probably assume that NN based those dragon breed names on the butterflies, and so maybe that provide a hint of her intentions for canon colors/patterns after all. Maybe add a brief "Butterfly" note/description to the end of each applicable breed? Dunno how much relative size info could be inferred from the butterflies, though. --[[User:Wombat1138|Wombat1138]] 13:47, 9 September 2010 (PDT)

== Multiple titles? ==

I'd do this myself, but I have no idea how to do it. We should make it so that Qin-Lung, Tien-Lung, Yu-Lung and the other Chinese Breeds link to their respective pages. At the moment, some of the pages have the English name for the breed, while the others have the Chinese name. Technically, since they're Chinese breeds, the Chinese translation is the proper name (and in all other cases, a non-English breed has not had the name translated). I know that this is specifically because the English name is used a lot in the series, but we should still try to set a standard, so it sits better with the format. 

However, I think we should still list both names on the page, but have both hyperlinks work so the page doesn't look unbalanced. Grandfather and Lung Tien Xian are both used for the same page, after all.

[[User:Almaron|Almaron]] 02:56, 23 September 2010 (PDT)

:I think I understand what you're saying, but I'm going to ask Strangerface to have a look, since she's the dragon expert. -[[User:Whitearrow|whitearrow]] 11:08, 23 September 2010 (PDT)

LOL. I didn't realize I was the dragon expert. :D :D :D 

I think what we could do is put a redirect page on, say, [[Tien-Lung]], that goes to [[Celestial]] but also put the tags at the bottom, so it will show up in the dragon breeds section? Let me try with Celestial and you tell me if this is what you wanted. -- [[User:Strangerface|Strangerface]] 11:51, 23 September 2010 (PDT)

:You are totally the dragon expert!  Yes, I think redirects & categories is the way to go. - [[User:Whitearrow|whitearrow]] 14:15, 23 September 2010 (PDT)

::Yep, redirects is exactly what I meant! Now to update the page! [[User:Almaron|Almaron]] 15:41, 23 September 2010 (PDT)

:::Sweet, the page finally looks right! It makes me wonder, however, if we should also translate the names for the other breeds. It's probably unnecessary, as only the Chinese breeds have been translated in the series this far, but it's still something to consider. [[User:Almaron|Almaron]] 15:56, 23 September 2010 (PDT)

:::I meant to do the same for the Japanese dragons, because I think they have a similar naming system to China. Riu is used in both dragon names, and is a spelling variant of Ryu, which means dragon. So if we knew what Sui and Ka mean in this context, it might tell us more about the dragon breed (although we already know that both those names are those of mythological Japanese dragon kings). [[User:Almaron|Almaron]] 16:10, 23 September 2010 (PDT)

::::BTW, don't know if it's any help, but I found this page listing a whole bunch of Dragon myths, which could be used to see if any breeds were based off mythological variants. http://www.theserenedragon.net/dragonschart.html [[User:Almaron|Almaron]] 16:11, 23 September 2010 (PDT)

:::I don't see any need to translate the names for the breeds that are always referred to consistently in the books? Like the Spanish and French dragons' names are never translated into English the way the Chinese seem to be. Though, certainly, if there were instances when the characters called a "Fleur de Nuit" a "Night Flower" then it might be useful? But I can't think of any other instances where there are two names. -- [[User:Strangerface|Strangerface]] 19:07, 23 September 2010 (PDT)