Editing Talk:Shen-Lung

I think we should consider renaming this page "Spiritual". "Celestial" and "Imperial" are both English translations of the Chinese names; "Tien" and "Qin", the "Lung" add-on meaning Dragon. Since Shen-Lung has already been translated on this wiki as "Spiritual Dragon", or something along those lines, it seems sensible to rename it so it fits with the other examples.

With that in mind, should we attempt a translation of the other two known Chinese Breeds; Emerald Glass and "Scarlet Flower" (Several un-named breeds also exist, one being small and purple, and another being black with yellow stripes, although this could be a relation of an Imperial)?

:IMHO article titles should be based on whatever the breed is primarily called within the series itself. Speculative "back-translations" to Chinese would be especially problematic-- a.) each individual English word may have multiple possibilities (frex cf. [http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?/topic/404-battle-of-chibired-cliff/page__view__findpost__p__3095965 this discussion of shades of red]); and b.) the English phrase might not be literal ("Scarlet Flower" might be a poetic rendition of "Peony"). I'm also wondering whether NN really thought about these elaborate breed descriptions wrt choosing a single character to fit into the middle of a three-part name like the ones we've already seen, or whether their names just end up with four parts or more. --[[User:Wombat1138|Wombat1138]] 19:24, 11 August 2010 (PDT)

== Tongues of Serpents ==
The new long-winged dragons in ''Tongues of Serpents'' have the individual names "Lung Shen Li" and "Lung Shen Gai"... should they be considered to be "Shen-Lung" dragons? 

Con: their "Shen" could be a completely different Chinese word that also happens to have "Shen" as a non-tonal transliteration, and the new dragons are described as "a wholly new breed".

Pro: Temeraire does repeat that odd comment by Shen Li about "trying to ''stop'' thinking". They were redeveloped within three years, suggesting that it only took two or three successive generations of crosses from existing breeds to recombine the right traits (depending on the egg incubation time and the parent dragons' minimum age of sexual maturity). They might still be considered to be a Shen-Lung subtype, possibly with an extra modifier in the main breed name that doesn't carry over into three-part personal names.

Thoughts? --[[User:Wombat1138|Wombat1138]] 13:04, 13 August 2010 (PDT)

It's confusing. At first I thought that it could just be the breed evolving over time, due to the skills of the Chinese breeders, but then it occured to me that a majority of the British dragons are not purebred, and are referred to by retelling the names of their forebears. In China, it could be that unless a new dragon is a visibly different breed from the last one, it keeps the name of one of its forebears, instead of coming up with an entirely new breed name (if that happened, there'd be thousands of different middle names). So perhaps these are just a cross-breed of Shen-Lung and another dragon. I'd say add it as a sub section in this article.

It also occurs to me that it could be part of a new breeding programme that isn't yet finished. Until the desired breed outcome is achieved, the offspring are referred to as "Shen-Lung".
@@ Line 4: / Line 4: @@
 :IMHO article titles should be based on whatever the breed is primarily called within the series itself. Speculative "back-translations" to Chinese would be especially problematic-- a.) each individual English word may have multiple possibilities (frex cf. [http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?/topic/404-battle-of-chibired-cliff/page__view__findpost__p__3095965 this discussion of shades of red]); and b.) the English phrase might not be literal ("Scarlet Flower" might be a poetic rendition of "Peony"). I'm also wondering whether NN really thought about these elaborate breed descriptions wrt choosing a single character to fit into the middle of a three-part name like the ones we've already seen, or whether their names just end up with four parts or more. --[[User:Wombat1138|Wombat1138]] 19:24, 11 August 2010 (PDT)
-:Additional note-- I've added some very speculative info to the Talk page for [[Scarlet Flower]]. Not much headway yet into researching the historical context of green glass production during the Qing Dynasty, esp. whether there would've been a special type with a single-word name. --[[User:Wombat1138|Wombat1138]] 17:08, 14 August 2010 (PDT)
 == Tongues of Serpents ==
@@ Line 19: / Line 17: @@
 It also occurs to me that it could be part of a new breeding programme that isn't yet finished. Until the desired breed outcome is achieved, the offspring are referred to as "Shen-Lung".
-:Come to think of it, Shen-Lungs are mentioned as varying in sizes, so perhaps the name refers to a broad area of dragons, or, to be precise, the dragons are named after whichever species they look the most like. [[User:Almaron|Almaron]] 02:15, 30 August 2010 (PDT)
-== "Spiritual"? ==
-Where does the "Spiritual" identifier for the "Shen-Lung" appear within the series? I've just re-read the first three books, especially taking notes on Chinese dragons, and didn't see that term for them at all. Did I miss it, or is it in books 4-6 instead? If the term is from outside literature instead of within the series itself, then that should be specifically noted. --[[User:Wombat1138|Wombat1138]] 22:31, 28 August 2010 (PDT)
-:It doesn't, but someone on this wiki came to the conclusion that Shen-Lung roughly translates as much, and I think it notes that on this article or on the translation page. Maybe the note was removed from the page in a wiki edit. [[User:Almaron|Almaron]] 23:47, 28 August 2010 (PDT)
-Should we change the breed bits so it reads "Shen-Lung (Possibly Spiritual; see below)"? We've already added "Possibly Shao-Lung" to the Scarlet Flower entries and "Plum" to the conjectural Li-Lung; it would make sense to do the same here. [[User:Almaron|Almaron]] 02:22, 29 August 2010 (PDT)
-:I've been wondering what would be the best way to format the "Dragon breeds" China section (and related individual entries)-- currently, it's listed with the Chinese breed names (sometimes highly speculative) followed by the English equivalents (ditto) afterward. Logistically, it would make more sense to have the canon names first, followed by our speculative interpretations. (Personally, I'm squeamish about adding my stab-in-the-dark back-translations to the actual entries, but if other people have already done so, then hey.) In the case of the "Li-Lung", I'd say that the breed name is very nearly canon, given the basis of "Lung Li Po" on the historical poet, whose surname's meaning of "Plum" is transmuted to a breed name by the general naming scheme of dragons; what we don't know for certain is whether the unnamed small purple dragons belong to the "Li (plum)" breed. --[[User:Wombat1138|Wombat1138]] 12:29, 29 August 2010 (PDT)