Editing User talk:Mooir

Leave messages for me here. Thanks!  ''I'll try to check it often . . . ''

== Temeraire ==

[http://www.mustardmuseum.com/product/2110/41 Dragon Mustard?]

== Do dragons preclude airplanes? ==

Say we look forward 100 years.  Would planes be invented in a world that already has air transport via dragon?  

I'm gonna say yes.  Maybe not in the same fashion/place/time but sooner or later someone will invent a plane with the justification of: "Dragons eat too much, are too hard to breed, and there aren't enough of them!"  Someone will probably invent a plane that will replace dragons for the same reasons the motorcar replaced horses.

That said, I really think those early pilots are going to have one tough road ahead of them.  I would not want to be the luckless WWI biplane pilot trying to fly against even a dragon of middling size.  Those things started out as flying death traps.  (Check out Stephen Coonts' 17th Day if you don't believe me.)  But I think the plane makers will persevere because planes can ultimately be made to fly higher/faster/longer than dragons.  

Just some thoughts because my fingers hurt from coloring dragons.  I've only got 4 left to draw: [[Alaman]], [[Bright Copper]], [[Ironwing]], [[Sharpspitter]].  All the other breeds are drawn and I just haven't scanned them in and cleaned them up to post yet.  --[[User:Mooir|Mooir]] 20:35, 4 July 2007 (PDT)

I'd just like to add to this discussion, that assuming the general public's skittishness towards dragons (at least in Western nations) holds, planes won't have a couple centuries of history and myth as giant eating and killing machines. Could a dragon even make a tans-Atlantic flight without somewhere to land? I'd imagine the fuel and cost of building and maintaining airplanes would be far cheaper than the cost of obtaining, raising, hatching, finding a pilot for, housing, feeding, training, and caring for a dragon egg/dragon.

That, and, planes can't point out your mistakes sarcastically.

--[[User:Tallakahath|Liz]] 6:36, July 21 2008

Hah!  Yeah, airplanes are much more docile in that respect. :)  It seems like some of the long distance courier breeds like the [[greyling]] might have a shot at transatlantic flight.  But for the most part probably not.  And that ride on the greyling is going to be far less comfortable than a 747.  Planes would probably diminish the role of dragons like motorized vehicles did to horses.  In that kind of world dragons would become creatures only for display/special events and not really useful in their former role.  There was this program on the British household cavalry on PBS here last year and I'm getting a good laugh imagining a small group of dragons kept only for parades and show and when their crews get called to action, they use helicopters instead of their dragons. The household cavalry had tanks they took into action.  Though using dragons for covert ops might work very good, especially in areas unfriendly to mechanical vehicles in general.  Overall, not a bright future for the larger breeds.  --[[User:Mooir|Mooir]] 19:23, 6 August 2008 (PDT)


Hmmm, aren't you both assuming that European dragons are going to allow themselves to remain dependent on the military forces to feed and house them?  Unlike cavalry horses, dragons are sapient.  By the end of VoE, both British and French dragons appeared to be making some progress on getting the right to choose what work they wanted to do, to be paid for their work and to own property.  Temeraire also expresses interest in being allowed to participate in government (e.g. vote, send representatives to Parliament).  If it seems far-fetched that the dragons might actually achieve these goals, consider that in China they already have.  Also consider that women in early 19th Britain could not vote, that married women could not hold property and that the African slave trade was legal.  Change *can* happen.

Also consider that the larger breeds of dragon live a couple of centuries.  Imagine a sapient being, recognized as a person under the law, who's been saving up their gold and accumulating interest on it for the past century or so.  Imagine how much experience such a being might accumulate in political maneuvering and strategy.  If anything, the humans would be outmatched (except possibly for their more rapid breeding rate).  I don't see dragons as *letting* airplanes drive them into extinction - but they might have some really neat ideas on aerodynamic design and they might end up *owning* a few airlines.

[[User:Rose|Rose]] 08:23, 1 September 2008 (PDT)


But recall, in China, they had a far different start. In the western nations, not only does the general populace fear dragons, but, the cities themselves simply aren't built very dragon-friendly (Napoleon's dragon-altered cities aside). People being forced to suddenly listen to and respect the dragons will only breed resentment, and, a single dragon needs FAR more land (in the sense of how much land/resources are required to support a dragon, rather than the fact that dragons are HUGE and would need a far bigger... flat to live in); any western nation can only support so many. And dragons still with the military would take precedence.

Many of the military dragons are far larger than any "natural" species (as evidenced by the massive size difference between the ferals and Temeraire's whole crew), and would simply have trouble finding space in any city. I'd see their assimilation into "society" to be very slow, and involve a large amount of dragons living on the countryside - cities would still be mostly empty. Though, the smaller and/or feral breeds could eke out a small niche in the city... except for the fact that, evidenced by Volly, the smaller dragons don't always tend towards the /smarter/ dragons. Meaning they simply may not have the drive or intelligence to manage themselves in the city.

Back on the pure subject of airplanes, and I'm addressing Mooir here a lot, I don't see them being reduced to mere show troops as you imagine. Mostly because dragons still hold several clear advantages over airplanes - they can fly pilotless, you don't need as much technical training (example: Lawrence managed to rescue... his friend on that ship (I forget who at the moment), without really knowing how to fly a dragon), and dragons don't need to "carry" fuel, as long as they've had a good meal a while back, they're good to go. A dragon can aim itself, rather than needing a person to aim it, especially if it's weapons are "natural" (though, a dragon could also probably carry/have strapped to it some piece of artillery and/or carry bombs). And a dragon's possible aerial maneuvers are far more varied than a dragon's; a dragon could easily swoop DOWN on a plane, grab it, and do some serious damage while the plane is pro'lly unable to shoot /upwards/.

Not to say that dragons won't see a lot less military use, but, I don't see them going entirely strong either. I'd imagine that dragons would really only get their "independence" as their military use diminishes, and people see them less and less as large, killing machines. I could see dragons still seeing much use in reconnaissance; the dragons themselves can see the ground and are harder to shoot down than a flimsy biplane, but less and less use in fighting warfare. And, that as planes become more prominent, dragons would encourage that growth in order to free themselves from military association. 

That, and, as big wars like WWI and WWII come about, dragons could easily establish themselves as "warheroes" and vastly improve their reputation.

This kinda turned into a ramble >> [[User:Tallakahath|Tallakahath]] 08:36, 2 September 2008 (PDT)



During the 20th century and especially throughout the latter half of the 20th century, the landscape changed considerably to accommodate private automobiles.  For example, in older cities, entire neighbourhoods were demolished to accommodate highways.  (Somehow this only seemed to happen to low-income neighbourhoods rather than high-income ones!)  Outside of the cities, land once used for farming and pasturage was pulled out of these uses to meet the needs of highways and of the suburban sprawl that the private automobile encouraged.

Given this, I'm not sure I don't see how the landscape might not be changed on a similar timescale (i.e., throughout the 19th century) to meet the needs of dragons, with cities being altered and with *more* land outside the cities being put into use as pasturage or as forests for wild game (e.g. deer).  Also, more dragons might be persuaded to eat fish, esp. if they have to spend their own earned money for food and if fish is cheaper. 

As for human fear, the British militia and soldiers in VoE seem to adapt to working with dragons well enough, and you can bet they're going to go home and brag to their families about it afterwards.  It might not even take a full generation for the British population in general to get used to the idea, esp. if dragons are in a position to offer service in other professions besides the military.  If you were a building contractor and the bulldozer hadn't been invented yet, wouldn't you like to hire a dragon?  :-)  Or how about the sort of public transit services that dragons offer in China?  These services would give humans the incentive to adapt.

[[User:Rose|Rose]] 06:46, 4 September 2008 (PDT)


But don't forget that, in the canon, the dragon's aren't particularly new to the military. The traditions, as indicated by the age of some of the older dragons, is more than a clawful of decades old. Yes, respect for dragons and their captains has raised slightly, but there's a severe bias in Lawrence's accounts through the novel. In the beginning he notices more of the outsider's point-of-view, that dragon corps society is introverted and isolated. Only when he settles into the corps does he see it as different, because he now IS one of them.

Automobiles don't have a thousand year history of eating people, simply stated. And while it may seem an unfair bias on my part, it's the same sort of unfair bias the dragons would have to face. Granted, this is all speculation, but still.

Well that, and, could you imagine a pissed off kazilik in peaceful society? All you'd need is one fire and all the dragons would get chased away. People would be quick to mentally group all the dragons together, big and small, dangerous and docile, stupid and smart. Dragons would suddenly, as a group image, be as smart as volly, as peaceful as a widowmaker, and as dangerous as an aggravated kazilik. In a best-case scenario, I could see 'dragon ghettos' forming, but those would be where our modern-day suburbia would form. Dragons need more land, as a general statement - they're bigger and simply need a bigger house. Which would get disproportionately expensive, considering how large dragons are at birth, and how long it would take them to accumulate wealth.

Please do take into account here that, if I seem particularly daft on an issue, I haven't read VoE yet. It's not out in paperback, and paperback is my poison-of-choice, so, while I don't mind spoilers, don't expect me to understand references. [[User:Tallakahath|Tallakahath]] 21:57, 4 September 2008 (PDT)


Oops!  Sorry, it was an assumption on my part that you had, and I *do* know what the first three letters of "assumption" spell.  :-)  Paperbacks are my usual poison too - the hardcover purchase was a special indulgence.  I just discovered the books this summer and read the first four all in a row, so by the time I got to the cliffhanger at the end of EoI, I'd acquired lots of momentum and went hurtling off the cliff at full speed.  I guess you could say that I succumbed to purchasing VoE in hardcover in order to break my fall.  :-)
[[User:Rose|Rose]] 05:40, 5 September 2008 (PDT)


PS - Are there official "spoiler guidelines" for this site?  Like not referring to a book until it's been out for at least [period of time] or not referring to it until it's out in both hardcover and paperback?  I'm new here and don't want to step on toes.  :-)   [[User:Rose|Rose]] 06:01, 5 September 2008 (PDT)

== Ironwing ==

Many apologies for the late reply (you asked me for Ironwing art suggestions at the beginning of June). I'll be gone travelling soon, as well, so unfortunately this will probably be all I can say to you for a while. It's very kind of you to ask, and though the Ironwing is hardly mentioned in the books, I can gather a few ideas together.
Going by the breeding (which is all we have), I'd say the Ironwing should be a midsize dragon, with large wings. I'd suggest a dark blue belly (hence the Longwing's) with the 'iron' coloration of its name across it's back, upper head, and wings - but of course, the final decision lies with the artist. Keep up the good work!

[[User:Железное крыло|Железное крыло]] 19:03, 11 July 2007 (PDT) 
(Zheleznoe Kruilo, Ironwing)


Excellent job, thanks.
[[User:Железное крыло|Железное крыло]] 16:29, 22 August 2007 (PDT)

== African mushrooms? *POSSIBLE SPOILER* ==

This is just idle speculation (and going here since South Africa and the mushroom found there don't have a page).  I think the cure to the dragon plague is the strange three capped mushroom found in South Africa.  Temeraire is rather sick when they reach South Africa, and while he gets his appetite back after switching to a Chinese menu, Laurence says Temeraire is "much improved and no longer so congested" after eating the foul sauce made from the mushroom.  The incident starts on page 220 of the US edition.  And since the 4th book is called Empire of Ivory, which I feel referrers to Africa, I'm pretty sure they are headed back to Africa to find a cure.  

As a side note, one sure way to derail Napoleon's new dragon based war machine is to send him the Dakota dragon and shortly Napoleon will be in the same boat as Britain is.  :) [[User:Mooir|Mooir]]


I agree with you 100%. It's the most popular theory among my friends. It's also the most resonable one considering where the action of the new book takes place. The question is whether they are going to sail to Cape Town or fly there. One of my friends said that sending another dragon transport with Temeraire will be impossible, because they would have to explain to various people why they are doing it, and the mission will be secret. Flying there would be faster, too. They could fly above the mysterious African lands :) My personal prediction is that Gong Su will be the one to tell them about the mushroom. I don't think that Laurence really understood what made Temeraire get better. And it was he Chinese cooks who originally bought and prepared the mushroom. Maybe it is a known cure for colds in China.

[[User:Natli|Natli]]

I'm hoping for a flying across Africa book too since we've already had one sail round it on a transport book.  I can't wait to see what kind of African dragons exist or what Temeraire will think of elephants. :)  I'm not sure anyone really understood the cure, but it would be cool to have the Gong Su be the one to explain it.  --[[User:Mooir|Mooir]] 19:48, 5 September 2007 (PDT)

== Planes, boats and trains... ==

(I hope I'm doing this right!)  One thing that's missing in this dicussion is the rest of the timeline.  Since someone mentioned trains and automobiles, it made me think that riverboats came first in the U.S.  Look up info on their development, I noticed that the first '''''practical''''' use of a riverboat was on the Hudson River (Fulton's Folly) in 1807.  That date made me realize that this is the timeperiod of the exploration of the West and in the early 1800's, the West was just the land between the Appalachian Mts. and the Mississipi River.  Riverboats were experimented with in Europe, but the War and the politics hindered their development. The wide open spaces in the Americas is what pushed the development of a lot of mechanized processes including tranportation.  It was a case of too much space and not enough people to fill it.  This was not a problem in China or in Europe.

Tradition also plays a part in how and when inventions happen.  In a book called The Discoverer's by Daniel Boorstin, he points out that several cultures had the basics to develop movable type (printing presses), but cultural pressure prevented this from happening. Some times it took a radical event, like the Black Plague killing of large portions of the population, to force the changes necessary.  In this case, it created the same problem that force the American population to go after mechanized transportation.

Those wide open spaces of Canada, the U.S. and Australia, might actually create a situation where dragons and their captians are encouraged to settle in those countries.  In fact, a swift and winged form of transportation might further impede the invention of trains, riverboats and planes.  Or at least until some other form of a Dragon Plague causes problems.

Me, I'm wondering if dragons become acceptable to society, will we see the development of miniature dragons for the masses?  I'm thinking of the fact that lap dogs became popular in Europe at the same time as these stories due to the fact that the population of the Cities and of the Court grew so quickly and made it impractical to keep standard sized dogs. If you got a large part of the population comfortable with dragons, they might want their own dragon to travel from the city to the countryside for holidays.  Will unscroupulous raiders start to steal unhatch Jade dragon eggs from Chinese nurseries?  If dragons can't find other forms of income will they submit to illicite forms of breeding programs to earn cash?
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 Leave messages for me here. Thanks!  ''I'll try to check it often . . . ''
-== Images ==
-To add artwork to pages, have a look at the top of [[Temeraire|Temeraire's]] page in edit mode, and you'll see examples of the code. - [[User:Whitearrow|whitearrow]] 16:15, 18 October 2011 (MDT)
-::I was just trying to categorize the images that had not been categorized.  I wasn't trying to add them to pages, just trying to keep them from being completely orphaned.  Sorry for the massive amounts of edits. --[[User:Mooir|Mooir]] 21:35, 18 October 2011 (MDT)
 == Temeraire ==
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 PS - Are there official "spoiler guidelines" for this site?  Like not referring to a book until it's been out for at least [period of time] or not referring to it until it's out in both hardcover and paperback?  I'm new here and don't want to step on toes.  :-)   [[User:Rose|Rose]] 06:01, 5 September 2008 (PDT)
-I do recall there being some level of spoiler-indication safety, and there being a cutoff date... however, I don't know what it is. I don't mind if parts of VoE gets spoiled; I already read a little bit of it at the bookstore anyway, and, most of what's revealed here is more technical than plot-related in detail (e.g. new dragon species). I'm just saying that I'm not fully keyed-in on some of the details about the 'dragonic revolution', or whatever it's being called. [[User:Tallakahath|Tallakahath]] 07:14, 7 September 2008 (PDT)
 == Ironwing ==
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 Me, I'm wondering if dragons become acceptable to society, will we see the development of miniature dragons for the masses?  I'm thinking of the fact that lap dogs became popular in Europe at the same time as these stories due to the fact that the population of the Cities and of the Court grew so quickly and made it impractical to keep standard sized dogs. If you got a large part of the population comfortable with dragons, they might want their own dragon to travel from the city to the countryside for holidays.  Will unscroupulous raiders start to steal unhatch Jade dragon eggs from Chinese nurseries?  If dragons can't find other forms of income will they submit to illicite forms of breeding programs to earn cash?
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-Hit four tildes (horizontal squiggle, probably the uppercase character on the key to the left of your 1/! key) in a row to sign your post with your name, time and date.  :-)
-Re: "miniature" dragons for the home user, how "miniature" can a dragon be and still carry a rider?  Jade dragons don't usually carry riders.  A Winchester - about the size of two draft horses, i.e., the kind of horses used to pull beer wagons, trolleys, etc. - can carry two grown men or one grown man plus three children.  If you were married with children and wanted a dragon for family trips, you'd need something at least that large.
-As for dragons engaging in illicit breeding programs, yeah, I could see that.  If dragons have freedom to earn their own incomes, there will invariably be some that are unable to.  In China Laurence sees a small, older dragon, in poor condition, who's unable to afford a cow and instead must make do with a small, burnt sheep, which he eats to the last scrap, indicating great hunger.  Dragons engaging in breeding programs because they need the money would be like humans who work the sex trade as a means to survive.
-And I suppose there'll be various sorts of draconic criminal activity as well.  Draconic highwaymen holding up stagecoaches and taking not only the passengers' money and jewels but also the horses as well (for supper).  Draconic pickpockets...  uh, no.  Can't quite see that happening.
-[[User:Rose|Rose]] 15:20, 6 September 2008 (PDT)
-On the matter of dragon crime, do you think there would eventually be... regulations on the breeding of dragons with natural weapons? I mean, a plain 'ole human, weaponless and without skills, can only do so much damage. A plain 'ole kazilik can still do a helluva' lotta damage on their own. And seeing as humans will vastly outnumber dragons no matter how society evolves (dragons breed slower, have a longer in-shell period, need more resources per dragon)... would the very large and dangerous breeds even be allowed to mate outside of military service? I could see a very bloody sort of revolution/uprising necessary for mankind to even let the very dangerous species outside of human control. Which would only further prove the humans' points. [[User:Tallakahath|Tallakahath]] 07:12, 7 September 2008 (PDT)
-But human control of dragon breeding depends on the willingness of the dragons to let the humans take and care for the eggs, and that gives the dragons an important bargaining point.  If a given nation refuses to allow them to breed except under very controlled circumstances, they can take their eggs elsewhere and refuse to allow that nation any at all.  If at least *one* nation strikes a deal with Kaziliks, Celestials, Longwings, etc., then *all* nations will have to do so.  It's like nuclear arms.  No nation will want to be the *only* one not to have these defenses.
-Another point is that if sufficient consumer demand has arisen for the services of the smaller and less dangerous breeds, then there's going to be quite a public uproar if *all* of the dragons band together in a "breeding rights for all" movement, with *all* dragons refusing to allow eggs to nations that don't give them sufficient rights.
-[[User:Rose|Rose]] 08:23, 7 September 2008 (PDT)